Home heating automation

xckjoo

Just wanted to say that I got this up and running and all's looking good. Feeling super fancy with my little white box on the wall instead of the clunky analog timer. Thanks to everyone for the help!

championc wrote: »

Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts

Is Open Window Detection a paid feature? Seems to be just showing up as a option for me. Haven't looked at geofencing yet. Don't go anywhere these days to need it

deezell

xckjoo wrote: »

Just wanted to say that I got this up and running and all's looking good. Feeling super fancy with my little white box on the wall instead of the clunky analog timer. Thanks to everyone for the help!






Is Open Window Detection a paid feature? Seems to be just showing up as a option for me. Haven't looked at geofencing yet. Don't go anywhere these days to need it

Open window is supposed to be part of the optional subscription, V3+ ? It
It was included in V2 along with Geofence. Open window is not really relevant with just a main stat in a central location, say hall, living or landing. I've only seen it alert once in years for a Tado TRV, and that was when, em, the window over it was left open.

championc

Another fantastic example of the versatility of the Tado. My wife needed a few bits of washing dried urgently on a radiator. So simply a matter of up'ing the temperature on the one rad, the boiler came on for about 3 mins at most, heated the single rad, went into circulation for a minute and then and shut down.

limnam

championc wrote: »

Another fantastic example of the versatility of the Tado. My wife needed a few bits of washing dried urgently on a radiator. So simply a matter of up'ing the temperature on the one rad, the boiler came on for about 3 mins at most, heated the single rad, went into circulation for a minute and then and shut down.

Tado's the job

deezell

Could be useful also when the cat wants her radiator hung cat bed heated. Time it for certain periods, see does she figure it out. Our belated cat preferred the gap in the double panel kitchen radiator, with the convection fins in between. She would squeeze between the panels, sitting on the fins, baking away. She knew it came on full in the mornings.

deezell

Just noticed my Tado phone app has updated to a new interface. V5.11.1. I presume this is the new app? Still have all my V2 stat skills as they are now calling them. I didn't pay the one off sub either, so they must be winding down the old app.

championc

deezell wrote: »

Just noticed my Tado phone app has updated to a new interface. V5.11.1. I presume this is the new app? Still have all my V2 stat skills as they are now calling them. I didn't pay the one off sub either, so they must be winding down the old app.

One change I noticed was that if I override the temperature of one rad (which I did and posted about yesterday), it runs that override until the next timed scheduled time, when it then reverts to your schedule again.

Toots

Would anyone be able to recommend some sort of smart heating controller alternative to Climote?

My parents are elderly and their heating controls are in an awkward spot under the stairs, and during the winter they're constantly in and out boosting it for an hour if the house gets cold. They were looking at the climote offer from Airtricity but I was wondering is there a simpler/cheaper alternative (I had the Airtricity climote in my old house, and while it worked great, I was waiting 4 months to get the thing installed, which isn't ideal) Basically what they want is a way to turn the heating on and off/set schedules with their phones. Also it needs to be compatible with Alexa. They don't have zoned heating, but they would like to be able to access the heating from outside the house (turn it on so the house is warm if they go out etc)

john_doe.

Hi

i was looking for some advice on attached logic diagram to see does it make sense

Current Set Up
3 zones:
• Zone 1 -9 Rads + 1 towel rail
• Zone 2 -2 Rads + 2 towel rails
• Zone 3 Hot water

Solid fuel stove
old boiler with no Switch Live
3 Analogue clocks that control the heating & hot water

14 Radiators List
1. Home Office
2. Spare Bedroom
3. Living Room
4. Hall
5. Towel Rail Main Bathroom
6. Kitchen 1
7. Kitchen 2
8. Back Bathroom
9. Play Room
10. Bedroom 2
11. Towel Rail – Bedroom 2
12. Main Bedroom
13. Towel Rail Main Bedroom
14. Basement


Picture of set up here : https://photos.app.goo.gl/RHi2Rx4zwunso5CW9

Proposed Set UP
Install Drayton 3 Channel controller with smart TRVS associated signal boosters and Manual Thermostats
Replace the Lex box with PLC and house all parts in small electrical box. Have a manual switch for override of hot water and heating incase the drayton fails.

1. Home Office (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
2. Spare Bedroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
3. Living Room (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
4. Hall (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
5. Towel Rail Main Bathroom
6. Kitchen rad 1 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted && Temp Sensor groups kitchen)
7. Kitchen rad 2 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted && Temp Sensor groups kitchen)
8. Back Bathroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
9. Play Room (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
10. Bedroom 2 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted & Temp Sensor)
11. Towel Rail – Bedroom 2
12. Main Bedroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted & Temp Sensor)
13. Towel Rail Main Bedroom
14. Basement

Progress : Have installed the Smart TRVs , the boosters and the thermostats.
Progress: Have Purchased the Siemens PLC Logo Unit,its expansion block & designed logic but not installed

The Siemens PLC Unit comes with a Display and also an Ethernet port for checking Input and outputs statuses.

https://www.automation24.biz/siemens-logo-230-rce-6ed1052-1fb08-0ba0

(I4)Drayton Ch 1 = Channel 1 on the Drayton which is set to control Zone 1 ground floor heating
(I5)Drayton Ch 3 = Channel 3 on the Drayton which is set to control Zone 2 upstairs heating
(I6)Drayton HW= Channel on the Drayton that controls hot water.
I1= a manual switch which when on turns on allows the Drayton to call the boiler.
I2= a manual switch that is used to turn on heating manually incase the drayton fails, this is emergency use only, But in situation drayton goes down and dont want a cold house
I3= a manual switch that is used to trun on hot water manually incase the drayton fails.
I7= Stat on hot water cylinder
I8= Stat on the Stove , the stove is connected to radiators.

---

Q1= The Boiler
Q2= Pump for the boiler
Q3= Pump Zone 1 (ground floor heating)
Q4= Pump Zone 2 (upstairs heating)
Q6= Pump for the stove

deezell

championc wrote: »

One change I noticed was that if I override the temperature of one rad (which I did and posted about yesterday), it runs that override until the next timed scheduled time, when it then reverts to your schedule again.

If you override the rad manually, by turning the TRV knob, it runs for the time set in Settings/Rooms/Manual Control/Timer. If you override on the app, it goes to the next event, until you adjust the slider back to a fixed time, which becomes the default for subsequent app overrides.

deezell

Toots wrote: »

Would anyone be able to recommend some sort of smart heating controller alternative to Climote?

My parents are elderly and their heating controls are in an awkward spot under the stairs, and during the winter they're constantly in and out boosting it for an hour if the house gets cold. They were looking at the climote offer from Airtricity but I was wondering is there a simpler/cheaper alternative (I had the Airtricity climote in my old house, and while it worked great, I was waiting 4 months to get the thing installed, which isn't ideal) Basically what they want is a way to turn the heating on and off/set schedules with their phones. Also it needs to be compatible with Alexa. They don't have zoned heating, but they would like to be able to access the heating from outside the house (turn it on so the house is warm if they go out etc)

What does the heating control(s) under the stairs look like. Make, Model or even a photo.
Do they have a hot water cylinder. Is it controlled also from under the stairs.
Assuming the house has no wall thermostat, my initial suggestion is a wired smart stat located in hall on the higher stairs panelling, to be easily connected to the current controls wiring. Tado or Netatmo wired, ideal for this. Also cost effective are Hive and Drayton Wiser, which are wireless to their wired receiver, so the thermostat can be wirelessy mounted where they spend the most time. This would be a simple install for an electrician or competent handyman.

deezell

john_doe. wrote: »

Hi

i was looking for some advice on attached logic diagram to see does it make sense..... [ \Quote]

it makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure it will work for you. Me, I would just have installed the Wiser receiver ( it is the Wiser 3 channel receiver/hub?) in place of the 3 timers, tested that the wireless stats controlled their zones, let the manual stove stat and cylinder stat continue to do their thing, and introduce the individual smart TRVs one a time, schedule, test and check if their associated zone pump ran and the boiler fired. I'd worry with full trv control that you haven't left some open rads (other than towel rails) to absorb stove heat. You had a well fitted manifold system, try not to introduce contradictory or crossed connections, which will have stuff on when it should be off and vice versa. E.g. your diagrams have multiple stove stat NO connections, but these all seem to be the same pair? It's not clear what anything does.
The bit about the boiler having no SL, I presume it's a basic mains controlled boiler, on or off, no permanent live for digital circuits or temperature displays or post purge or any of that modern pansy stuff. (I'm joking). The only issue wirh this boiler might be the current requirement via the contacts of the lex box relay, as it's powering the entire boiler which has a decent inductive start up surge. Still, lex box or it's replacement should be up to it, just check the boiler mains rating and the relays rating thats firing the boiler.
I think I've commented on all this before in this thread? Logically it's simple. Three pumps controlled by three relays for each zone call, CH1, CH2 and HW. Boiler is fired for any of these calls, except when the stove relay is closed, boiler should be cut and one or both CH zone pumps should be activated, even if the zone stat is not calling (herein lies the problem of all rads closed by TRVs). The HW pump to cylinder, and open towel rails may not be sufficient to sink the heat from a raging stove, besides which it should have a gravity feed from the stove, otherwise the stove has a closed loop until the pumps come on and open the non return valves on each zone. Again, I assume you have the Drayton Wiser controller, you mention of manual stats is at odds with the smart TRVs which require the wiser channel hub to fire the boiler. Perhaps you're not using the main stats at all? Keep at it and good luck.

Toots

deezell wrote: »

What does the heating control(s) under the stairs look like. Make, Model or even a photo.
Do they have a hot water cylinder. Is it controlled also from under the stairs.
Assuming the house has no wall thermostat, my initial suggestion is a wired smart stat located in hall on the higher stairs panelling, to be easily connected to the current controls wiring. Tado or Netatmo wired, ideal for this. Also cost effective are Hive and Drayton Wiser, which are wireless to their wired receiver, so the thermostat can be wirelessy mounted where they spend the most time. This would be a simple install for an electrician or competent handyman.

I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

deezell

Toots wrote: »

I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

It's just a case of getting a smart stat like Tado or the others wired in place of that little timer. Tado is a simple wire in job. Netatmo also. Hive and Drayton Wiser smart stats have a wireless receiver which replaces that timer, then a stat which can be placed anywhere. Netatmo also have a wireless version, Tado similarly with an optional receiver at extra cost. Any competent diy'er or sparks would fit one in in a jiffy. Plumbers tend to recommend more basic models like the EPH ember, which is not as capable as the others, but probably as easy to set as the existing timer. Honeywell Home is another Smart stat option, easy install, turms on heat as you get near the house etc.
They all cost €140-200, sometimes good discounts on amazon, or the power companies will stick one in free and claim your grant to (more) than cover their cost, plus you might have to change your plan and rates.

Good Amazon price for Tado this minute. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FZ3P393/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_T6KdFb8PAWPK9

Energia will fit Netatmo free if you sign up their plan.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FZ3P393/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_T6KdFb8PAWPK9

Shefwedfan

41% discount with Netatamo

https://onebigswitch.ie/offers/energy/?utm_campaign=energy_multi&utm_content=200713&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email_obsie&utm_term=cta1

Not sure if link will open but on OneBigSwitcch

championc

Toots wrote: »

I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

Or for £25 extra, you can get the Tado Starter Kit which includes 2 x Smart TRV's too. A pair of TRV's would normally cost about £100

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YCY3T1S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_5IRdFbCTTSHZB

xckjoo

championc wrote: »

Or for £25 extra, you can get the Tado Starter Kit which includes 2 x Smart TRV's too. A pair of TRV's would normally cost about £100

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YCY3T1S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_5IRdFbCTTSHZB

I think if you don't already have TRVs on the radiators, they'll have to have the whole system drained to install them. Not the worst job but it would probably bring it from a DIY job to one you'd want a pro to do.

deezell

(S)he just wants a swap from the stairs cupboard timer to an accessible stat with an app. Any of the main brands are ideal, It's getting it installed quickly that's more important.

Toots

Thanks guys, I’ll have a look at those. I’m not sure about the thermostatic valves, that might be too much for the auld pair to take on board. My husband used to be a plumber, so if it came to having to drain the system, he could do it, although he’d prefer to avoid it because the plumbing is a bit temperamental in my parents house.

They like the look of the Hive. I had a quick look at the app and it looks nice and straightforward. Dad was looking on Amazon and saw this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B088LTFQFW/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?pd_rd_i=B088LTFQFW&pd_rd_w=sX3fs&pf_rd_p=1055d8b2-c10c-4d7d-b50d-96300553e15d&pd_rd_wg=7rPMu&pf_rd_r=QFVB2SGC1T84A2VRN1JD&pd_rd_r=484fb03b-4f20-4682-b07a-c2bff08b27f2&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE1UDI2Ukg5WERIWTEmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA3MDA5ODk1WlNCQVg1WTZCQ0EmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDUzNTU2MjE1UVc2SldLTkZJVFcmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1 he likes the look of the brushed chrome (matches the light fittings) but I’m assuming that’s just the switch bit and they’d need some sort of receiver to go in where the timer is under the stairs? Also has anyone ever heard of that brand? It seems weirdly cheap and also has no reviews.

Toots

Sorry guys, just an update, the parents got confused yesterday when I was asking them about zones. Apparently when they turn on their heating it also heats the water. They can't turn on their heating without heating the water, but if they want hot water without heating they can use the immersion switch in the hotpress. Not sure if that makes a difference to the options suggested.

deezell

Toots wrote: »

Sorry guys, just an update, the parents got confused yesterday when I was asking them about zones. Apparently when they turn on their heating it also heats the water. They can't turn on their heating without heating the water, but if they want hot water without heating they can use the immersion switch in the hotpress. Not sure if that makes a difference to the options suggested.

The MoesGo is a cheap Chinese take on the smart stat market. Iirc, it and similar I've came accross requires mains power to the stat, which you already have to the timer. It's probably ok, you're on your own when it comes to setting up app access, but no reason why it should not perform the basic functions of temperature control, timing, and manual remote switching of the stat when away. It's worth a punt at £50.

Now to your HW. I guessed you had a single zone. I note on the image of the glow worm boiler there is a mode switch to enable CH or HW only mode, or both. This would imply either a three port valve internal to the boiler, and the appropriate plumbing, or an optional external valve. At the simplest, gravity heating of the cylinder can be achieved by turnimg off the CH circulation pump, assuming cylinder has a Seperate gravity feed from the boiler. Set your husband on this one. If 2 zone mode is plumbed, you can get a two zone smart stat with an extra terminal to control and switch the zones. Tado, Hive, Nest Drayton will all control CH and HW, wiring depends on what's already there. If that mode switch on the boiler actually works, I would just use that for the summer, HW without CH.

deezell

Should have also said the MoesGo is a wired stat, no receiver, just divert the existing timer wiring to it.

Toots

It's the potentially crappy app that's putting me off that, but I suppose with the price it might be worth trying. I think the likes of the Hive/Tado have good straightforward apps which would be important for my parents. I have some of those chinese smart plugs and while they work well, the app is not very user friendly.

I'll get the husband to have a look at what way the boiler is set up - I've just had a look under the stairs and the heating is running right now and only the little radiator symbol is showing on the display. They've never touched the mode button on it, it's how the installers set it up when they put it in about 2 years ago.

john_doe.

"it makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure it will work for you"

the logic is basically a reproduction of what the Lex box is doing. The Lex box that is there currently needs to be replaced as it is faulty so it was either a case of buying another or the PLC.


. Me, I would just have installed the Wiser receiver ( it is the Wiser 3 channel receiver/hub?)

Yes its a 3 channel

I'd worry with full trv control that you haven't left some open rads (other than towel rails) to absorb stove heat.

there is also no smart TRV on Radiator 14.

your diagrams have multiple stove stat NO connections, but these all seem to be the same pair? It's not clear what anything does.

the stove stat connections are just logical and not physical i.e there is only one stove stat input but its referenced by the logic in a few places.
the Logo logic diagrams are a bit confusing the way they lay them out , i have added comments to the attached which hopefully clears it up?

ignore the manual switches if needed , they are only there for a backup if the drayton fails and i need to turn on the system by flipping them. There are two manual physical overrides. I2 (heating manual). I3(hot water manual). they would only be activated in situation where the drayton goes down- ive heard there have been couple of reported instances a year of this, so wanted to have a way of turning on system if drayton stopped working. I1 (automation on) is another manual switch , that is always switched on- it probably serves no purpose really and could be removed.

The bit about the boiler having no SL, I presume it's a basic mains controlled boiler, on or off, no permanent live for digital circuits or temperature displays or post purge or any of that modern pansy stuff. (I'm joking).

exactly

The only issue wirh this boiler might be the current requirement via the contacts of the lex box relay, as it's powering the entire boiler which has a decent inductive start up surge. Still, lex box or it's replacement should be up to it, just check the boiler mains rating and the relays rating thats firing the boiler.

Good point. Thanks

I think I've commented on all this before in this thread?

you have , thanks for that , but i put it on the long finger till now as couldnt get a plumber or electrician.

Again, I assume you have the Drayton Wiser controller, you mention of manual stats is at odds with the smart TRVs which require the wiser channel hub to fire the boiler. Perhaps you're not using the main stats at all? Keep at it and good luck.

Yes i have the Drayton, the manual timers will be removed. i also have the drayton smart room stats though in some rooms, they are little square boxes that allow you to get a better temperature reading than at the TRV. For example in kitchen i have two radiators , the drayton stat groups them together as a logic "kitchen" stat that makes the call.

https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/smart-room-thermostat

fitzparker

Would anyone know of the Netatamo controls heating and hot water separate?

Enerigia are offering it.

We don't use hot water (have power shower ) so would like it to control the heating only and not turn on the hot water.

Thanks

deezell

fitzparker wrote: »

Would anyone know of the Netatamo controls heating and hot water separate?

Enerigia are offering it.

We don't use hot water (have power shower ) so would like it to control the heating only and not turn on the hot water.

Thanks

Netatmo is a CH smart thermostat only. They have no HW timer function. If you have direct boiler HW system, or if you have a HW cylinder but don't heat it with your boiler, or if you don't require remote timing option of your HW, then Netatmo is fine. It can be a wired unit or wireless, so it can be directly wired in place of an existing mechanical thermostat. If you have no thermostat, just a boiler or zone timer, you can install the wireless Netatmo in the main zone area, with it's wireless receiver connected to the boiler, or zone valve if you have more than one zone.

fitzparker

deezell wrote: »

Netatmo is a CH smart thermostat only. They have no HW timer function. If you have direct boiler HW system, or if you have a HW cylinder but don't heat it with your boiler, or if you don't require remote timing option of your HW, then Netatmo is fine. It can be a wired unit or wireless, so it can be directly wired in place of an existing mechanical thermostat. If you have no thermostat, just a boiler or zone timer, you can install the wireless Netatmo in the main zone area, with it's wireless receiver connected to the boiler, or zone valve if you have more than one zone.

Perfect, SOunds like it would work for us.

Im not sure what I have, just a controls has one button for CH and one for HW (we very rarely turn the HW one on) then just the one thermostat controlling the whole house at one temp ( not multi zone)

deezell

fitzparker wrote: »

Perfect, SOunds like it would work for us.

Im not sure what I have, just a controls has one button for CH and one for HW (we very rarely turn the HW one on) then just the one thermostat controlling the whole house at one temp ( not multi zone)

A wired Netatmo or Tado is ideal for this. Just swap out the stat. Leave your controller with CH on all the time, the smart stat will fully control timing and temperature.

john_doe.

john_doe. wrote: »

"it makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure it will work for you"

the logic is basically a reproduction of what the Lex box is doing. The Lex box that is there currently needs to be replaced as it is faulty so it was either a case of buying another or the PLC.


. Me, I would just have installed the Wiser receiver ( it is the Wiser 3 channel receiver/hub?)

Yes its a 3 channel

I'd worry with full trv control that you haven't left some open rads (other than towel rails) to absorb stove heat.

there is also no smart TRV on Radiator 14.

your diagrams have multiple stove stat NO connections, but these all seem to be the same pair? It's not clear what anything does.

the stove stat connections are just logical and not physical i.e there is only one stove stat input but its referenced by the logic in a few places.
the Logo logic diagrams are a bit confusing the way they lay them out , i have added comments to the attached which hopefully clears it up?

ignore the manual switches if needed , they are only there for a backup if the drayton fails and i need to turn on the system by flipping them. There are two manual physical overrides. I2 (heating manual). I3(hot water manual). they would only be activated in situation where the drayton goes down- ive heard there have been couple of reported instances a year of this, so wanted to have a way of turning on system if drayton stopped working. I1 (automation on) is another manual switch , that is always switched on- it probably serves no purpose really and could be removed.

The bit about the boiler having no SL, I presume it's a basic mains controlled boiler, on or off, no permanent live for digital circuits or temperature displays or post purge or any of that modern pansy stuff. (I'm joking).

exactly

The only issue wirh this boiler might be the current requirement via the contacts of the lex box relay, as it's powering the entire boiler which has a decent inductive start up surge. Still, lex box or it's replacement should be up to it, just check the boiler mains rating and the relays rating thats firing the boiler.

Good point. Thanks

I think I've commented on all this before in this thread?

you have , thanks for that , but i put it on the long finger till now as couldnt get a plumber or electrician.

Again, I assume you have the Drayton Wiser controller, you mention of manual stats is at odds with the smart TRVs which require the wiser channel hub to fire the boiler. Perhaps you're not using the main stats at all? Keep at it and good luck.

Yes i have the Drayton, the manual timers will be removed. i also have the drayton smart room stats though in some rooms, they are little square boxes that allow you to get a better temperature reading than at the TRV. For example in kitchen i have two radiators , the drayton stat groups them together as a logic "kitchen" stat that makes the call.

https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/smart-room-thermostat

Traced the existing wires yesterday.
The PLC logic works (in simulation anyway)
Hopefully the logic makes sense from plumbing perspective.

garo

I have a question about pump overrun after the boiler shuts down. I have an old “dumb” boiler Ideal Classic FF18 - 15 years old 84% efficient but works well. I have an Evohome system to control CH and HW and a Grundfos pump. There is a zone valve for hot water and TRVs on every radiator. I don’t know if there is a bypass.

So the pump shuts down as soon as the boiler goes off - I assume they are wired together. This means that the boiler can often be quite hot for a while. I would like to have the pump overrun for a bit to take the latent heat out. Is there a way to do this while also making sure the pump is not running when the HW valve and all the TRVs are closed?

deezell

garo wrote: »

I have a question about pump overrun after the boiler shuts down. I have an old “dumb” boiler Ideal Classic FF18 - 15 years old 84% efficient but works well. I have an Evohome system to control CH and HW and a Grundfos pump. There is a zone valve for hot water and TRVs on every radiator. I don’t know if there is a bypass.

So the pump shuts down as soon as the boiler goes off - I assume they are wired together. This means that the boiler can often be quite hot for a while. I would like to have the pump overrun for a bit to take the latent heat out. Is there a way to do this while also making sure the pump is not running when the HW valve and all the TRVs are closed?

This will do the trick.
https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/timer-relays/8966810/

garo

Thanks. Apologies for the next question. How do I wire it? I found some vague instructions on automatedhome but also caution on not to use this if you don't have a bypass loop as the pump will be pushing against closed valves and that might damage the pump.

deezell

garo wrote: »

Thanks. Apologies for the next question. How do I wire it? I found some vague instructions on automatedhome but also caution on not to use this if you don't have a bypass loop as the pump will be pushing against closed valves and that might damage the pump.

That is a minor issue, circulation pumps are inertia vane type, like a fan, it doesn't build up much pressure in static flow. When the flow is totally closed, all TRVs closed and HW valve closed, then there is no path alright. Your system probably could do with a bypass loop, or an open radiator to act as the same, such as a towel rail, especially one thats on a gravity path from the boiler with the pump off. This would give some relief to the residual hot water in the boiler jacket. If you have the boiler stat set to regulate the boiler to say 65°, when it cuts there's unlikely to be enough residual heat in the jacket baffles to boil it too 100°. A timer on the pump is only of use if there's an open path for pumped or gravity flow, so running the pump is not going to solve this problem which probably doesn't exist. Try turning down the general boiler flow temperature, no need to have it scalding, unless you have rooms that need the radiators 'hopping" to heat, but that would be a radiator size or room insulation problem. Your boiler will be more efficient if it's run a few degrees cooler, return water will be cooler and heat transfer higher.

There's a complicated wiring diagram for the relay on the site, but basically it's a mains triggered relay with a double pole single contact switch, which you would supply with permanent live in and connect the pump live to the relay live out, which is a mirror of the boiler live trigger plus an adjustable delay.

garo

Thanks. So I had the thermostat knob at a bit over 5 which is 77C according to this document. I have since turned it down to 3 which is 66C.
The document recommends a lower setting for the summer when only HW is needed anyway. Thanks for the prompt deezell. Hope this will resolve the issue and I won't need to worry about the pump overrun. Thanks for the wiring explanation as well. But I expect I won't need it now as the solution you suggest is much simpler.

garo

So I dug into this a bit more and posting it here in case it helps someone else. The Evohome has a "Hot Water Overrun" feature that allows the hot water valve to stay open for a set time. So if you have a boiler that has a pump overrun or put in a delay timer on the pump AND you have a system where there is a valve to the HW, you can set the overrun timer on the evohome and it will leave the hot water valve open for that amount of time after the boiler has stopped firing. I checked today and it works. After the boiler stops, the hot water valve closes after the specified delay.

I may yet go for that delay timer switch deezell.

deezell

garo wrote: »

So I dug into this a bit more and posting it here in case it helps someone else. The Evohome has a "Hot Water Overrun" feature that allows the hot water valve to stay open for a set time. So if you have a boiler that has a pump overrun or put in a delay timer on the pump AND you have a system where there is a valve to the HW, you can set the overrun timer on the evohome and it will leave the hot water valve open for that amount of time after the boiler has stopped firing. I checked today and it works. After the boiler stops, the hot water valve closes after the specified delay.

I may yet go for that delay timer switch deezell.

I had been reading a blog about Evohome to find more information about this. There were lots of references to percentage cycling and the like for CH, and complaints about residual cycling, where the Evohome would give the boiler one extra blast after its calling stat had reached set point. The basis of the complaints were that in these cases the room temperature would rise a further few degrees above setpoint, and posters found their system hysteresis too great, plus or minus 2-3°, which caused too hot/ too cold heating pattern. There was no solution offered in the blog, but it got me thinking that perhaps this was caused by a boiler overrun, but effective only if the rad TRVs / CH zone valve were shut and there was an open sink such as a towel rail or an open HW valve. If the posters had just an open rad system without smart TRVs and no CH zone valve of course the rads would heat in this instance. This problem may also have been to do with the Opentherm controlled boilers used by the posters.

Your boiler is a hard on/off job, but it has only a very small boiler surface as it is a gas boiler, with a small volume heat exchanger, so not a lot of residual heat in there to dissapate. The question now is how does the boiler fire for a HW only request from the evohome?
Is your HW demand to the boiler directly from the Evohome relay, the same one that calls the boiler for CH? Such a call would facilitate HW only if the system was full TRV, so that CH flow is cut while HW valve is opened. The evohome relay has a seperate HW On Switched Live terminal, this is what is connected to the HW valve to open it.
Normally, the HW valves's own aux relay is used to fire the boiler, ensuring the boiler doesn't fire for HW until the valve is opened, as a safety feature, and ensuring that a SL from a HW terminal doesn't cause the rads to heat by reverse opening a CH zone valve. (This would occur if the CH and HW SLs were just combined at the boiler.) This of course means that any call to the HW valve, including an overrun, would open the valve, close the relay and fire the boiler, so the overrun in this case would be pointless, nothing more than a short HW timing cycle.
So it depends on how your Evohome was wired. If the HW valve is passively opened by the evohome HW relay terminal , but the SL to the boiler is a common one for both CH and HW, then this overrun feature could be used to open the HW valve without boiler firing, leaving just the little matter of getting the circulation pump only to spin during this time.
If the above wiring scheme is true, and IF the HW zone valve has an unused boiler call relay, and IF this relay is a two pole relay with NO ( grey wire) and NC ( white wire) terminals, this relay could be used to control the SL source to the pump. By diverting the boiler SL to the pump via the valve NC terminal, and splitting the HW valve SL call ( brown wire) across to the NO terminal, then connecting the pump to the Common (orange wire) terminal, the pump will always circulate for a HW call or a CH/HW boiler call, but the boiler will only fire when the boiler call is on.
This solution will work if the HW valve is Not used to fire the boiler, and if it has an unused relay with the NC white wire terminal, many just have the grey and orange wires.
There's a bit to chew on there, so start examining how your Evohome boiler calls are made, for CH and HW.
Here's a typical 2 port valve wiring with NC terminal

garo

My setup is similar to Figure 4 on page 46 of this document with a major difference highlighted below.

I have a full TRV set up and 1 valve to control HW. Prior to the installation of the Evohome it was a single zone system.

The call for the boiler comes from the Evohome controller - same for CH and HW. I have a pair of BDR91 relays listening to the controller, one controlling the boiler firing + pump and the other the HW valve. This is because the HW valve is close to the HW cylinder and far from the boiler so it wasn't possible to wire the HW valve to the same relay that connects to the boiler. So the two relays both receive all the controller calls wirelessly but act slightly differently.

When a call comes for CH, only the boiler+pump relay fires. When it comes for HW both the boiler+pump relay and the HW valve relay activate with the latter switching off x minutes after the boiler relay switches off where x is the hot water overrun parameter.

When both HW and CH are called for simultaneously, it is possible that both the HW valve and some TRVs are open. In this case there is no prioritization and both share the boiler heat.

Hope that clarifies the setup. I understand that whether just adding a delay timer between the relay and the pump would work depends on what the HW relay does on a CH only firing. If after a CH only call, the HW valve does not open during the boiler overrun period then simply adding a delay before the pump won't work. The TRVs would have closed before the pump stops. OTOH, if the HW valve opens on boiler shutoff for the overrun period then adding a simple delay timer would work.

deezell

garo wrote: »

........OTOH, if the HW valve opens on boiler shutoff for the overrun period then adding a simple delay timer would work.

This is the key. If the above occurs then a timer on the pump is required, or else the HW SL from the relay to the HW valve can be used to supply the pump via the valves aux relay. This would require some wiring though, which you indicated was awkward with the distance between the boiler/pump and the HW valve.

garo

Thanks. When my understanding of the situation is the same as yours, I know I am on the right track.

scurran19

I'm looking for a little help so I can have an informed conversation with a plumber / electrician about getting a smart thermostat.
I have a Firebird-S 90-120 oil boiler heating both my radiators and hot water and the timer on the boiler has gone. Its a simple old style timer where you pull the pins out, something like this https://heatingpartswarehouse.co.uk/product/firebird-super-q-timeclock/

The problem is everything I read about smart thermostats has the thermostat on a wall in a room with a control panel. Mine is just a knob on the boiler. Hence I don't know if what I am thinking is even possible.

In an ideal world I would replace the timer and thermostat on the boiler with a smart thermostat with Alexa integration where I can set the schedule but I don't know if that's possible with my set up.

For further info there are just 2 zones in the house, upstairs and downstairs and I don't need to be able to control them individually at the moment. It would be nice to be able to heat the water independently of the radiators but I have a feeling that would be a change beyond what I am looking at here and isn't essential.

All help is appreciated!

Clareman

The thermostat in the room is really just to turn the heat on or off rather than control the amount of heat coming out of it, so if you have the heat set to 22 and the heat in the room is 21 the boiler will come on and when the thermostat hits 22 the boiler will turn off again. I've the Netamo on a Firebird burner and it's a great job, but I only have 1 zone and no separate water

championc

scurran19 wrote: »

I'm looking for a little help so I can have an informed conversation with a plumber / electrician about getting a smart thermostat.
I have a Firebird-S 90-120 oil boiler heating both my radiators and hot water and the timer on the boiler has gone. Its a simple old style timer where you pull the pins out, something like this https://heatingpartswarehouse.co.uk/product/firebird-super-q-timeclock/

The problem is everything I read about smart thermostats has the thermostat on a wall in a room with a control panel. Mine is just a knob on the boiler. Hence I don't know if what I am thinking is even possible.

In an ideal world I would replace the timer and thermostat on the boiler with a smart thermostat with Alexa integration where I can set the schedule but I don't know if that's possible with my set up.

For further info there are just 2 zones in the house, upstairs and downstairs and I don't need to be able to control them individually at the moment. It would be nice to be able to heat the water independently of the radiators but I have a feeling that would be a change beyond what I am looking at here and isn't essential.

All help is appreciated!

Think of any Smart Thermostat as an "external to the boiler" on/off switch. So anyone with a boiler with a similar level of (lack of) control can add a smart thermostat, which will then take the place of the original on/off switch (or be wired in parallel). Of course, you'll need to get wires run from the boiler to where you propose to locate the Smart Thermostat

deezell

Or just use a smart stat with wireless connectivity to a relay located at the boiler, which is pretty much all of them. Hive, Drayton Wiser, Nest, Honeywell are wireless by default. Tado is wired but with optional wireless ext Kit. Netatmo available wired or wireless. Other non smart or 'less" smart options are EPH ember, Climote, hub controller and other internet connectable cheap stats on Amazon, many of Chinese origin.

digiman

Are there any products out there that will digitally display and record the temperature of the water in your hot water tank?

deezell

digiman wrote: »

Are there any products out there that will digitally display and record the temperature of the water in your hot water tank?

This, up to 85°C.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0773MX8BH/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_LylgFb8X3HPZN

digiman

deezell wrote: »

This, up to 85°C.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0773MX8BH/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_LylgFb8X3HPZN

How will this know the temperature of the water inside the tank though?

deezell

digiman wrote: »

How will this know the temperature of the water inside the tank though?

By attaching the probe to the outside metal surface of 5he cylinder. If you have one if the more expensive double skinned insulated tanks, you'll need something different with a probe sensor to fit into the provided insert tube on the tank.
Look up the Sonoff switch/stat/thermostat device. You can read the temp on an app, and it can act as a stat as well, to fire the boiler. I'm not sure if the app can log or record on going temperature over time, (this is what you want?), but Sonoff can be picked up by all sorts of smart tech and apps, some of the readers here might have done this already.

Irish_peppa

Has anyone here with a Nest Smart Thermostat know if you can actually get any decent information from it ie: You used your central heating last week for 5 hours . There seems to be no proper usage menu. I get a silly email at the end of each month talking about "leafs" and how many leafs i saved. My god would be better if you had this infomation:
December 2019 Central Heating Usage 60 Hours
December 2020 Central Heating Usage 45 Hours
its a fantastic device but there is no real data that you can use to manage your usage

deezell

Yes, but referencing unquantified tree bits rather than Joules or Kilowatt hours is much more appealing to the Eco warrior brigade, who queue up to buy at the mere mention of these organic credentials. Maybe they should include a years supply of quinoa or chia with each stat.

chuck eastwood

Someone hasn't had their coffee yet 😅